The Entrepreneur's Road Podcast

Dare to Lead: Alex Budak on the Courage to Become a Changemaker

• Season 1 • Episode 7

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Guest Background:

Alex Budak is a distinguished faculty member at UC Berkeley, co-founder of StartSomeGood, and the acclaimed author of "Becoming a Changemaker." He is passionately dedicated to empowering individuals to find their voice, spark change, and create a significant impact. His academic roles span across multiple departments at UC Berkeley, including the Haas School of Business, the School of Public Health, and Berkeley Executive Education. Alex is renowned for his inspiring changemaker courses, which have even motivated students to get related tattoos.

His book, "Becoming a Changemaker," has been recognized by CNBC as one of the "top 5 non-fiction books everyone should read about work," and is being published in 12 languages. Budak's journey in driving change commenced with the co-founding of StartSomeGood. This initiative has supported changemakers across over 50 countries, helping them raise millions of dollars to launch and scale new initiatives for change.


Alex holds degrees from UCLA and Georgetown University. He is a sought-after speaker, contributing to events at major organizations like Accenture, Salesforce, and UNHCR. Outside of his professional endeavors, he enjoys culinary adventures, intense workouts, and traveling the world, having explored 39 countries so far.



Guest Info:

LinkedIn: Alex Budak

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[00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of, to entrepreneurs road. Have you ever had a terrible manager professor or witness a terrible leader? Well, you're not alone. In fact, they're everywhere. An 82% of startups fail due to bad management. And inexperienced leadership. And today's episode. I had the honor of talking with Alex boondock.

[00:00:26] Alex is the author of becoming a change maker. A faculty member at the university of California. Berkeley has a school of business where he teaches the concept of becoming a change maker and leadership to hundreds of students every semester. He also cofounded do some good, a business that has collectively assisted 1500 Changemakers and raised over $12 million for good causes. Let's just start the episode by this quote from Alex's book. [00:01:00] The first step to reinventing leadership is to stop waiting for permission. Opportunities to lead in today's world. Our season, they're not given. So don't stand in your own way and give yourself permission to lead. Let's get us started. 

[00:01:20] Sam: Hi, Alex, welcome to the Entrepreneur's Road. I'm so, so excited that you are here. I read your book, I have like so many sticky notes that I ran out of it. So I, I loved every page. I loved every sentence. It was so much good advice for any kind of people, but especially for the topic of my podcast, which is about entrepreneurship. So, um, I just can't wait to dive into it. 

[00:01:51] Alex: Oh, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be with you. And there's nothing more meaningful as an author than to see a book that's been well loved and well read.

[00:01:58] Alex: So thank you for taking [00:02:00] such good care of it. Yeah, excited for our conversation. 

[00:02:04] Sam: Yeah, thank you. I can't wait to like, have you sign this for me when we meet in person, hopefully one day. Um, so before we start, I like to, just start this on a fun note, , and ask you a fun question. And it is that if you could have dinner with, One changemaker from history, who would they be 

[00:02:28] Alex: and why?

[00:02:30] Alex: Oh, what a fun question. There's so many, I think I would cheat and say, I want to have a dinner party. But if I could only have one, I would choose Jackie Robinson. So Jackie Robinson is a baseball player. He's known for breaking the color barrier in major leagues. And he's my personal favorite change maker.

[00:02:49] Alex: As a kid growing up, whenever I had an excuse to do a paper on some historical figure, I would always choose Jackie Robinson. Um, and he deeply inspires me as a change maker. [00:03:00] Um, so much so that my son's middle name, he's named after his great grandfather, uh, but we chose the letter J for that. And so we gave him the middle name Jack as a sort of homage to Jackie Robinson.

[00:03:12] Alex: And in the hopes that he has the same courage and resilience that Jackie Robinson 

[00:03:16] Sam: had. That is wonderful. And I will after this research about Jackie Robinson, I'm looking forward to that. And, to start off, who is a changemaker? 

[00:03:28] Who is ChangeMaker

[00:03:28] Sam: Y

[00:03:29] Alex: I define changemaker really broadly and inclusively. So I simply say that a changemaker is someone who leads positive change from wherever they are.

[00:03:39] Alex: And so you'll see in that definition that there's no mention of roles or of titles. And so my fundamental belief is that each and every one of us can be a changemaker and that it's this inclusive identity that we can layer on top of our existing ones. So we could be a changemaker, lawyer, a changemaker, venture capitalist, a changemaker, entrepreneur, then also a changemaker, parent, a [00:04:00] changemaker, son, a changemaker, cousin.

[00:04:02] Alex: So that's a way of seeing the world around us and then our role in being able to shape it.

[00:04:11] A ChangeMaker vs The Traditional Entrepreneur

[00:04:11] Sam: In your experience, what are some key qualities that distinguish a change maker from a traditional 

[00:04:20] Alex: entrepreneur? One of the things I found that's interesting is that. Changemaker changemakers identity is one that's much more inclusive. So I found that not everyone sees themselves in some of the traditional titles.

[00:04:32] Alex: We might think of like an entrepreneur capitalist or even a leader. Um, so I think much more inclusively. Um, so I think that, for instance. Entrepreneurs are often change makers, but change makers don't necessarily need to be entrepreneurs. That said, change makers will share a number of common traits. One of the key things I teach in my class at Berkeley is around, you know, how do you develop an entrepreneurial mindset?

[00:04:57] Alex: So whether or not you end up launching your own business, [00:05:00] how can you see the world a little bit more like an entrepreneur? And that's where I see a lot of overlap between the two.

[00:05:09] Entreprenerial Mindset is Inclusive

[00:05:09] Sam: So for a, just for anyone, why would you think, , A entrepreneurial mindset or entrepreneurial skills would help them in whatever 

[00:05:21] Alex: journey that they want to take. One of the things that we found in the world today is that it's changing really quickly. And it also will never change as slowly as it is today.

[00:05:33] Alex: Speaking as someone who's been an entrepreneur. Um, I think entrepreneurs are uniquely suited to see opportunities where others see challenges to be quite nimble and flexible and adaptable to not take failure personally. And these are all crucial traits that I think we need to navigate the world. So whether you're going to be inside a larger company, affecting change or launching your own thing, I think it's still super valuable to sort of see the world like [00:06:00] an entrepreneur does.

[00:06:01] Alex: Um, it's something that's becoming very popular. Of course, now a lot of people want to be entrepreneurs and I think that's a wonderful thing, but I also recognize as many of your listeners do that being entrepreneur is also really hard. It's a really hard, you've got to be super driven. And so there's sometimes we're maybe at a point in our life, maybe we don't have that risk capital.

[00:06:20] Alex: You know, maybe we're in a place where taking care of families, we can't take that financial risk, or maybe for other reasons, we're just not quite ready to do our own thing yet. Well, even if you're not launching your own business at the moment, you can still start practicing those entrepreneurial skills, that mindset, and that will serve you whenever it is that you want to become an entrepreneur.

[00:06:39] Alex: Yeah. 

[00:06:40] The Risk Quotient Formula

[00:06:40] Sam: And, on the topic of risk, I really liked, there was a formula in your book that you mentioned that when you want to like bring about change, you can put it in that formula and see, If you want to take that risk or not, uh, can you a little elaborate on that formula [00:07:00] for our listeners?

[00:07:01] Alex: Yeah, it's called the risk quotient, and it's an important tool that I use in teaching in my writing because I find that in working with people around the world, it's usually not that any one single risk stresses them out. It's just the sheer number of potential risks, potential changes you might lead, and it can feel really overwhelming not having any way of how to start.

[00:07:21] Alex: And so the risk quotient is a simple but powerful tool and it basically says, okay, begin by qualitatively identifying what are the potential rewards, the benefits from risk and qualitatively, what are some of the downsides, potential costs? And so you can think about, you know, maybe it's making money or it's having some impact, but also maybe it comes at certain costs.

[00:07:41] Alex: But then from there, once you identify the qualitative measures, then you quantify them, you give them a number one to 10, one being low and 10 being high. And then you see what the quotient ends up being, and it was a three to one ratio rewards to risks. That's generally a rule that it's a risk worth taking.

[00:07:58] Alex: Now, of course, there's room for [00:08:00] individual perspectives and bias here. So we may not look at the same risk the same way, but at least gives you a heuristic, a mental model. For thinking about how you can think about risk. And if you're in a team where you're trying to make a decision, you could allow every person to do their own risk quotient and then have that as a basis for conversation.

[00:08:17] Alex: So again, it doesn't make it completely black or white that you'll take this decision, but at least it gives you the context and a way of looking at it in a more objective way that allows you to decide, okay, if I'm going to do this risk, I do so with confidence. Where if I decide not to, then I say, look, it's just not worth the risk.

[00:08:36] Think Big, It Is Possible

[00:08:36] That's really such a great mental model to just like, think about it. Another thing I loved about your book was that you encouraged people. You said, like, give yourself permission to think big and to think it's possible, uh, the big changes that you want 

[00:08:54] , take small actions and follow it through.

[00:08:58] Sam: And, , the concept of. [00:09:00] Taking no action is an action of itself. In a world that's unfortunately a lot of people tell you that like, you know, it's not going to be possible. Don't think too big. It's this is too much. You're a dreamer or whatever.

[00:09:18] Sam: Why do you think we should? I have actually have our big dreams and how do we take actions toward them without getting overwhelmed? 

[00:09:32] Alex: Yeah, no, that last part is key, but the world will never change if we don't think big. If we're totally okay with the status quo, if we think the world is as good as it's going to get, okay, then, then we're done.

[00:09:42] Alex: But I think most people probably don't believe that. Um, I love the words of singer songwriter, Joan Baez. She says, action is the antidote to despair. And so in my teaching, I never told people not to feel despair. Because I think if you look at the world right now, there's all too many reasons to feel [00:10:00] despair.

[00:10:00] Alex: But the question or the challenge is to say, can you feel that despair, but still take action regardless. And I think that's absolutely crucial. But many people, and again, this is a wide range of folks, um, from, you know, freshmen that I teach at Berkeley all the way to work with a lot of senior executives.

[00:10:16] Alex: And here's the truth. Change is scary and taking action is scary, and it's not like you ever get to a point where it's not scary, but the question is, how do you balance both of those things? I want people to dream big, have big, bold ambitions, and also at the same time, not get so overwhelmed with them that we just get paralyzed with fear.

[00:10:35] Alex: So I'm a big believer in taking those small but crucial first steps of action. You don't have to have everything figured out right at once. I think if you can articulate a vision, have a sense of where you're going and then find that courage to just start, even that smallest first step, you then start building the confidence and the courage as you go as change makers.

[00:10:54] Alex: We often need to hold multiple things in mind at the same time to feel conflicting on one hand. We have to [00:11:00] think about urgency and patience. On the urgent side, let's say we're fighting for climate justice or racial justice. These are urgent issues that require change right away. But they're also things that probably won't be changed overnight.

[00:11:12] Alex: They won't be changed overnight. And so I think the challenge is, can you hold on to both that urgency and that patience? And I think it's that same type of polarity thinking we need with changemaking. The idea to simultaneously hold a big vision, to not be scared of thinking big, but also not let that vision overwhelm you and still find the courage to take those first steps.

[00:11:36] Being Purposeful is your Superpower

[00:11:36] Sam: Yes, I love that. I always think that beginner mindsets can teach you so many valuable things. Um, so embracing it would be really good for any entrepreneur. Another thing that you just touched base on was purpose, the sense of purpose and a sense of vision. In a study. In your book, [00:12:00] it says that leading with purpose, there was this virtual coaching company, BetterUp, did a survey of two thousand three hundred American professionals and found out that American professionals are okay to lose 20 percent of their income to work in a job that has purpose.

[00:12:18] Sam: And a lot of entrepreneurs, when they start out, they don't have much resources. , and they need to hire people and they need to bring on people. They need to find a co founder that believe in their vision and purpose. So how do you think entrepreneurs can Integrate purpose with a sense of their 

[00:12:35] Alex: work so important and it's a real superpower.

[00:12:40] Alex: If you can articulate and help other people find their purpose, it's a magnet for attracting the type of talent that you need as an entrepreneur. And so the way I like to think about how can you sort of inspired that purpose and others is by leading with what I call the three V's. The three V's are vision, values [00:13:00] and victories.

[00:13:01] Alex: So vision, I like to think about this is painting a picture of the future. That's so compelling that people can't help, but want to be part of it with you. And crucially here, it's also helping others see how their contributions, however small, however tangential lead to that larger vision. So if you're recruiting an accountant to join your team, help them see how their contributions in the books and in the payroll lead to that larger vision you're creating together.

[00:13:30] Alex: That's vision. The second is values. One of the best parts about being an entrepreneur is you get to create your own little world. That's what I love about being an entrepreneur is that, you know, there's the way that the world works, but then for your organization, your company, you get to create your own little.

[00:13:48] Alex: And that means you have a way of working things you believe in your values. And I think as a leader, as a founder, you've got to articulate those values up front. In some ways, it doesn't matter exactly [00:14:00] what they are, but you've got to stand for something. I think the best, most powerful values will be between three and five total.

[00:14:08] Alex: You don't have 10, then you stand for everything and you may not want to have one. It helps give people a sense of, you know, why do you do the work you do? How do you go about doing the work that you do? And it anchors them when maybe you can't help them make every decision. They know how to think even when you're not there.

[00:14:24] Alex: There's tons of data that show that especially among Gen Z that 70 percent of them want to work for a company or an organization that shares their values. And so step one is to articulate those values and make sure you're living those constantly. And then the third is victories. So as entrepreneurs, we can often have this sort of tunnel vision and we're thinking on 5, 10, 20 year horizons and we're saying, we're not going to stop until we reach scale around the world until we reach a billion people served.

[00:14:53] Alex: And that's wonderful, but most people who will be working for your company may not have that type of grandiose vision, [00:15:00] or at least not at the beginning. And so this is a. Bad habit. I see a lot of many entrepreneurs and myself included is that we sometimes forget to celebrate the small victories along the way.

[00:15:11] Alex: Make sure people feel a sense that you're moving towards that shared vision that even each week you celebrate the small wins, the little things that brought you closer to your goals. And so I think if you can become a leader, a founder who leads with vision, with values and celebrates victories, then you'll be well on your way to building a purpose driven team.

[00:15:34] Psychological Safety

[00:15:34] Sam: I couldn't agree more. It's it's enjoying the process. It's important and during the process includes celebrating those small victories. As a leader and change maker, how entrepreneurs can foster a culture of inclusivity and innovation within their team and organization.

[00:15:59] Alex: The place I'll [00:16:00] start is with some of the most powerful social science research, and this is done by Amy Edmondson at Harvard Business School, and she's the one that popularized the concept of psychological safety, and psychological safety is not that everyone is kind to each other all the time. That's a, that's a misunderstanding.

[00:16:15] Alex: But rather it's this feeling that a team is safe for interpersonal risk taking, that you can be yourself, that people won't punish you for deviating or for standing up for something. Um, and you feel like, yeah, you know, if I have an idea, even if it's an idea that I don't know if people believe it, I can put it forward and I won't be punished for that.

[00:16:32] Alex: And so research done by Edmondson as well as Marcus Baer at Washington University of St. Louis and many others have shown just incredible benefits. That when psychological safety is there, it leads to greater team cohesion, to greater innovation, even greater revenue growth. So even if you don't believe it just for its own sake of wanting your team to be at its best, just focusing on bottom line revenues and innovation, it's worth doing.

[00:16:56] Alex: So that leaves the question of, well, how do you build psychological [00:17:00] safety? I think this is where we can really think about some of the traits that we show up as, as a leader, as a founder. To me, the most crucial one is a sense of humility. So sometimes I see this, especially among first time founders that maybe you've never led a team before and you now have a team of seven people that you're leading and you feel this tacit pressure that you have to have every answer that you think the team is looking to you and you've always got to be decisive.

[00:17:25] Alex: You've always got to have the right idea, first of all, you probably don't because if you're an entrepreneur, you're working in uncharted territory. So you won't, but even if you do, you've got to let that pressure go aside. If you lean into your humility, it actually makes it safe for others to feel like maybe they have a voice.

[00:17:41] Alex: Maybe they have a chance to share things. Practical ways to do this, you know, one is you can model your own fail ability. So if you present a strategic plan for why you should operate in this new country, you know, I'd say, look, here's what I'm thinking, um, it could be right. Could be wrong, but would love to hear what you think.

[00:17:58] Alex: What are some of the holes in my argument? Where's the [00:18:00] flaw in my logic? What do you all think? And the second one is being willing to ask questions, you know, maybe you're sure that you know, the right answer, you know, the right direction to go. Can you actually lead your team towards it by asking questions?

[00:18:14] Alex: At the very worst, you find some, well, okay, maybe no one pushes back and great, then you've just validated your idea is right, or at the best, you ask these questions and you come up with new ideas or new perspectives that you wouldn't have had before. So, as a leader, as an innovator, I say focus on building psychological safety doesn't mean you have to be kind all the time, but you create a culture where people feel safe being themselves.

[00:18:38] Alex: And to do so, you practice humility, and you model your own failability to make it safe for others to take risks.

[00:18:46] Sam: That reminds me of a story you shared, um, in your book where, um, you had a friend, he loved his work at this is startup, but then suddenly the boss [00:19:00] came and said, you know, we're shutting down today. And you mentioned how, your friend had so many ideas how they can generate income in other ways.

[00:19:09] Sam: So I loved the concept of psychological safety. I think it's so important. Um, and it can bring about a lot of innovation without people. Feeling scared and feeling like they're going to be, as you said, punished. So that was one of my favorite parts. Uh, I'm glad you talked about it. I was going to ask you anyway, but, that's, , makes me think about the concept of divergent thinking and convergent thinking I've seen a startups have a lot of conflicts, , in meetings, , 

[00:19:44] Divergant and Convergant Thinking

[00:19:44] Sam: So can you talk about a little on the concept of these two things and.

[00:19:52] Sam: In what ways can entrepreneurs effectively balance divergent and convergent thinking to foster [00:20:00] innovation? 

[00:20:01] Alex: Yeah, I love this question. Uh, the number of times we've been brought in to sort of solve conflict among executive teams, where it really just came down to a difference of divergent and competent thinking a handful of times already, and this is a powerful tool mindset for you to keep in your back pocket for when these conflicts inevitably arise.

[00:20:19] Alex: So first let's define each so convergent thinking is going towards one single right answer So if I were to ask you, you know, what's the capital of Germany or how much does a baby penguin weigh? There's a right answer for those things. It's a very clear established set of facts Divergent thinking is sort of creative.

[00:20:38] Alex: It's innovative. It's multiple possibilities. It's not one right path, but many possible paths Now, there's a place, a time and a place for both of those things. There's a time where you want to be generating as many ideas as possible, but then also there's a time where you need to make a decision. At some point you have to rally the team around one single path and go forward.

[00:20:59] Alex: But [00:21:00] often where conflict happens, like I mentioned, is that people don't know what type of conversation, what type of thinking they're meant to be doing. So the sales team is thinking about convergent thinking, they just want to get to one right answer, but then maybe the product manager is thinking divergently and come with all kinds of possible solutions.

[00:21:16] Alex: There's conflict there because we're not agreed on what we're trying to be deciding on. So one of the things you as a founder, as a leader can do is actually be very meta and say, okay, look for the next 30 minutes. I'm going to focus on divergent thinking. I'm going to come up with many possible paths for a new feature, a new product, new go to market strategy.

[00:21:35] Alex: Like let's just come with a lot of ideas. And your job there is to really hold the space. If you've done improv, you know, it's the idea of like, yes. And rather than shutting down ideas or critiquing ideas, you're just trying to get as many ideas as you can and ideally build upon them. You know what she said, I'll add to that and say this, that's the type of thinking that we want.

[00:21:53] Alex: Maybe you do that for 30 minutes. You've got lots of ideas. You say, okay, look, now it's time to converge among these 30 ideas. Let's try to come up [00:22:00] with the top three. Let's come up with the top three and you kind of widow it down. Then you might say, okay, cool. Well, this one sounds really interesting.

[00:22:06] Alex: Let's explore this path and let's come up with a few different ways we could implement that. Boom, back to divergent thinking. You say, okay, now it's time to choose that one right path. You go, okay, convergent thinking. So it's a way that you as a leader can facilitate conversations by thinking about what's the type of thinking we need here.

[00:22:22] Alex: Do we need more ideas? Would we need a single right idea? And then you help guide your team to make sure they're doing the right thinking. And everyone is aligned in terms of what to be bringing to the conversation.

[00:22:34]

[00:22:34] Sam: Hope that entrepreneurs get familiar with these concepts because I don't think they know about this Uh, if they knew like it would be way more organized As as startups are very messy I think these concepts will help them to navigate like the type of meetings that they can have , this was like the first time I actually heard about divergent and convergent thinking.

[00:22:56] Sam: So thank you. Um, there was a lot of new concepts and I [00:23:00] loved it. 

[00:23:00] What is your Leadership Style?

[00:23:00] Sam: So a lot of entrepreneurs. Are being the first time leaders, like the, actually having the title of leaders. And they are leading a team now and they've maybe never done that before. Um, and in your book, you mentioned about six different leadership styles.

[00:23:25] Sam: How can entrepreneurs learn about which one is their styles and how can like appropriately use like different styles and different situations? 

[00:23:35] Alex: Yeah, I'll tell a personal story because I really felt that I basically never led a team before I was a founder, you know, I've led student groups, but I never actually led a team.

[00:23:43] Alex: It's really not a team where anyone was getting paid. And so I just had all these preconceived notions about what it took to be a leader of a team. And I thought that even though my general leadership style is to be really kind of inclusive and focus on relationships [00:24:00] that for some reason I felt like, okay, now I'm the founder of this organization.

[00:24:02] Alex: Yeah. I've got to be really authoritative. I've got to tell people what to do. And like, that's my job is to be kind of like the hard driving boss. And needless to say, that just didn't feel right for me. It wasn't my natural style. And so it wasn't until I was living in Washington, DC and read a paper. Um, it's by Daniel Goldman from Harvard and it's called leadership that gets results.

[00:24:24] Alex: He talked about six different leadership styles that have finally clicked for me. And I realized, oh, okay, there's not one single leadership style building upon Goldman's work and I'll, I'll share the six styles, but the way I began thinking about it is that leadership is like a series of hats. You try these different leadership styles, depending on what the situation calls for, you know, sometimes you wear a baseball camp, sometimes you wear a top hat or a fedora or whatever it had, it calls for same thing with leadership styles that you will have your natural, your default style, the one that's most comfortable for you.

[00:24:58] Alex: But at certain [00:25:00] times. You'll need to try different leadership styles on, but as leaders, as founders, especially first time leaders can feel really scary because you go, well, that's not who I am. Like, I don't want to be that kind of leader. But for me, this idea of thinking about leadership styles as hats really empowered me to be like, okay, I'm going to try on this leadership hat just for this one meeting, just for this tough conversation.

[00:25:20] Alex: And then I'll go back to being the way I want to be. The six dials that he talks about, he talks about being an authoritative leader. So basically telling people what to do, saying, okay, this is what you got to do. Go do it. Go. Then there's being more of a visionary leader. Someone who kind of paints that picture and inspires others.

[00:25:41] Alex: And by the way, this is the one that I think most naturally falls for entrepreneurs. It's kind of setting that vision, bring others along the way. Then there's affiliative. That's the one that's most natural for me. And that's the idea of people come first, investing in relationships. Fourthly is pace setting.[00:26:00]

[00:26:00] Alex: These are the people that maybe don't say a lot of words. They just work really hard. And you can think of it as leading by example. Next is democratic. That's where you focus on getting everyone's input, make sure everyone feels heard, and then take group decisions rather than sort of an authoritative decision.

[00:26:17] Alex: And then the last one is coaching. This is putting on your coach hat and saying, you know, how can I develop my leaders for the future? Someone comes to you with a question instead of solving it for them, you ask them, well, what do you think? How could you build the skills to better solve it? Now in sharing these six styles, you probably had one where you're like, yeah, that's what I normally do.

[00:26:34] Alex: And I probably shared one where you're like, Ooh, that doesn't feel like something I would do at all. And that's the great part about thinking them about them as leadership hats, rather than feeling like, okay, I don't ever want to be someone who tells somebody what to do. Cool. You don't have to be most of the time, but maybe occasionally you'll need to be.

[00:26:52] Alex: You put on that hat, maybe only wear for two minutes, just for a single email you have to write. And then you take it back off and go back to the style you're more comfortable with. But [00:27:00] starting to see leadership styles as hats just gives us the flexibility to say, look, I am not my single identity. I am not my one leadership style.

[00:27:07] Alex: I focus on leadership that gets results and I can put on these hats depending on what the situation calls for.

[00:27:14] Sam: , exactly. Um, 

[00:27:15] Serving Leadership

[00:27:15] Sam: another concept that's just this, leadership styles reminds me of is the importance of serving leadership. So, can you explain the concept of serving leaderships and how entrepreneurs can develop that mindset when they're going about starting a company, leading a 

[00:27:36] Alex: company?

[00:27:39] Alex: Yeah, this comes from the classic work of Greenleaf, um, he wrote the book Servant as a Leader. Um, the name Servant Leadership feels a little bit dated now, so maybe you don't like that title. I don't especially love it, but the concept I think is good. And he says that rather, you know, there's some people that set out to be leaders because they want to be leaders, but he says the best leaders are [00:28:00] those that seek out to 1st serve others to try to make things better for those around you.

[00:28:04] Alex: And then, by virtue of that, then you grow into a leader, but you are a servant 1st. Another way we might think about this is I sometimes call it beyond yourself leadership. There's so much pressure in the world to think about, you know, what do I get out of this? What's my bottom line? How do I grow? But I really truly believe that the more you serve those around you, the more you look out for helping those around you succeed.

[00:28:27] Alex: You can't help but succeed yourself. And so a servant leader is ultimately trying to understand, well, what do those people around me need and how can I help them? And leading a team. It's rather than saying, okay, I need you to do this. It's checking and saying, like, look, what are the biggest barriers to you doing your best work right now?

[00:28:43] Alex: What help do you need? And I found in my own experience that sometimes it's, you know, helping them navigate a really difficult conflict they're having at work. And sometimes it's as simple as like, look, I need to be able to book a conference room. I just don't have access. Can you please email it? I've been trying to get in touch with them for weeks.

[00:28:59] Alex: It's all [00:29:00] kinds of things from the mundane to the big to help others be at their very best. Um, and then it's also thinking about, um, putting your own ego at the door. And it's not saying that you have to have all the right answers, but thinking, look, my job is to collect really talented people, help them do their best work.

[00:29:21] Alex: At the beginning of my leadership journey, I used to judge my own leadership based off of how many times would my team come to me and ask me for my advice or ask me to make a decision for them and say, you know, what do you think about this? Instagram post about to send out or what do you think about this spreadsheet that I made?

[00:29:37] Alex: And it's like, wow, what a good leader I am. But what I realized is that I had become a roadblock to our team that I had made myself so central to the team that our team wasn't going anywhere. So in that moment, I learned to trust my team to step back. And instead, I started judging myself based on how many decisions can my team make without me.

[00:29:57] Alex: Could I give them a sense of our vision, a sense of our [00:30:00] values, and then get out of the way and help them be at their best. And those are the type of leaders that I think many of us want to work for. I think it's an aspirational type of leader to become. Because it's one that really brings out the best in your team and as a result in your organization.

[00:30:17] Trust 

[00:30:17] Sam: Yes, absolutely. And , you just touched this topic of trust. Why is trust important in a team and or like within the entrepreneurial landscape? What does trust mean in this sense? And why is it important to 

[00:30:38] Alex: foster it? I love the definition of trust that comes from Rachel Botsman. She's at Oxford and she says, trust is a comfortable relationship with the unknown.

[00:30:49] Alex: And if there's ever been a world where there's a lot of unknowns, it's the world of entrepreneurship. You don't know what will happen in an hour from now, let alone three months or three years from now. And so [00:31:00] it's developing both a trust in what's going to happen and also the sense of trust in those around you to help you get there.

[00:31:06] Alex: As an entrepreneur, if you start thinking about all the things you don't know how to do, or all the things that could go wrong, you'll never take any action. And in some ways, I think it's a bit of a blissful naivete that one of my first jobs was being a founder. And so I didn't realize all the things I didn't know.

[00:31:24] Alex: If I realized that I didn't know how to create an HR payroll until it came time to pay my staff the first time I would have been so paralyzed with fear. I never would have done it. But instead, can you have trust that says like, look, I don't know how to do things, but I will figure it out as I go. But then also can you build a sense of trust in your team?

[00:31:43] Alex: You know, when you look at all kinds of measures around the world today, like the Edelman trust barometer, trust is plummeting. It's plummeting in institutions. It's 20 and media banks. We just tend to trust those around us much less. But at the same time, I would argue trust has never been [00:32:00] more important.

[00:32:01] Alex: And it's especially important. I think with our new way of working, we're working in distributed teams, hybrid teams, flexible teams, asynchronous teams, where, you know, previously leadership would say, okay, I'm a great manager because I see my team is in the office from 8 a. m. until 5 p. m. I can watch them.

[00:32:18] Alex: Well, you're not going to be doing that any not that that was ever healthy, but you're not doing that. And so now it's about do your teammates feel a sense of trust. On the flip side of trust is something like micromanagement. You know, it's someone telling you exactly what to do, exactly how to do it. And just think for yourself.

[00:32:35] Alex: Has there ever in your life been a moment where someone micromanages you? And you're like, Oh, thank you. That feels really good. No, of course not. No one likes being micromanaged. Instead, we want the opposite of that, which is trust. Feeling like our leaders, our team has a belief in who we are as people, that we can do our best work.

[00:32:52] Alex: Trust that we won't be unethical and that we'll come to you if we have a problem, if we need your help. Especially if you become a servant leader, [00:33:00] but that you have that space to sort of be your best, be flexible, rather than someone looking over your shoulder. And trust is what enables that.

[00:33:10] Alex: Yes. 

[00:33:11] Sam: , the concept of micromanagement, . It means like, that there is no trust maybe people, mean it well when they do it, but that's ultimately the underlying meaning behind of it. , lot of a startup, once they get a little traction, , they want to, make sure that what they do is that to keep up that traction.

[00:33:36] Sam: And they kind of like become a little corporate, like in a sense that, , they are scared of like doing something else that might hurt that traction. So they might go to the routes of micromanagement. So how do startups? Make sure that they don't get [00:34:00] trapped in that , while making sure that that traction don't go away, but at the same time, don't stop their innovation.

[00:34:09] Marker

[00:34:09] Alex: Yeah, I appreciate that. It would be clear that if you are someone who micro manages, you're not a bad person. It's a very natural tendency to have. Especially when we care so much about something or we feel like we've got something to lose. You know, we've worked so hard. We were a solo entrepreneur for two years.

[00:34:24] Alex: We finally have a team and you're like, I don't want to lose this. And I see for that, that's really scary. And so two ideas on how you can get better at delegating and not micromanaging. Um, the first thing is to focus on protecting the downside of risk. So what you do is, you know, before you delegate to someone, think about what's the worst possible case scenario that could happen?

[00:34:45] Alex: You know, maybe you're planning an event and you delegate it to a new teammate. And the worst possible thing is they don't do any work and there's no event. Okay. So how do you think about practically planning around that? Well, you might say, look, if they were to do no work, [00:35:00] and it's 1 week before, I can still put it together in one week.

[00:35:03] Alex: So maybe give them a different deadline and say, look, the actual event is December 31st. So by December 24th, I need you to have the plans in place. That means worst case scenario, they haven't done anything. You could still make it happen. So think about what's the worst thing and how do you practically plan around that?

[00:35:19] Alex: The second is to learn at delegating by focusing on being clear on the what. And flexible on the how right? So again, going back to that same idea as an event, you might have a certain vision for how that event should be. And the what are your non negotiables? You might say, look, we want to have at least 100 people in the room.

[00:35:37] Alex: We want to have a panel discussion and we want to have gender and race diversity on that panel. That's what you care about. But what you don't care about is I don't know what kind of food is served, how you promote the event. Um, what type of people are in the room. There's things you don't care about.

[00:35:53] Alex: And so you can kind of draw a box and say, look, these are the parameters. These are things you have to do. You've got to make sure that we have 100 people in the room, [00:36:00] but you don't say, but you've got to do to talk ads or you got to do flyers like there's room to do however you want to do it. That gives people a chance to make sure that they meet your bare requirements, that they're aligned on the must haves, but then a lot of flexibility on things that maybe don't need to be in that certain way.

[00:36:17] Alex: And then that allows you, you know, the second part of your question is the smart part about it, which is innovation. What you risk when you micromanage is there's never any new ideas. It's only your ideas being implemented when you give them that sense, you know, maybe they have a new idea for marketing that idea takes off and you end up with 200 people in the room instead of a hundred.

[00:36:36] Alex: And that might not have been possible had you dictated exactly how to do it.

[00:36:43] The Best Leaders Characteristics

[00:36:43] Sam: Thank you so much for explaining that. Another leadership question for the longest time. The louder person in the room was considered a natural leader.

[00:36:55] Sam: That's what was written in your book that I totally agree. [00:37:00] But you said in the digital modern world, where we communicate over zoom, we communicate online, then there is, it's no concept of being the loudest person being the greatest leader. And. And you mentioned that actually being loud and talking over others is a liability denestrant.

[00:37:23] Sam: And I 100 percent agree with everything that you said. So who are the best leaders in today's world? 

[00:37:34] Alex: First, I just want to pick up on that idea of the sort of natural born leader. And I hate that idea because I think it's based off of these. Incorrect assumptions about who can lead or what type of leader it is.

[00:37:45] Alex: And I think it's wrapped up in all kinds of class and race and gender bias. I think we need to get rid of this idea of the natural born leader. And so I think about how can we lead from where we are, but in a world where it's no longer the loudest person, [00:38:00] then the flip side of that becomes that much more important.

[00:38:02] Alex: And I think the best leaders are those that listen most effectively. It doesn't mean you don't talk at all. It just means that you're able and willing to listen. Especially as you begin leading more complex teams, where maybe, you know, you're overseeing a team of 10, and you don't know anything about finance, but you just hired a chief financial officer.

[00:38:24] Alex: Well, now you have two choices. You can either go try to learn everything about finance that you should have known already. Or you can learn how to ask really good questions. You can learn how to ask questions that bring out the best in your CFO. And also in your unique vantage point as a founder, say, well, okay, how does your financial projection connect to what our COO over here is saying?

[00:38:45] Alex: Or how does that connect to our marketing strategy? You're being able to see connections. Often it comes from being able to ask really good questions and I think it's a very freeing thing too because if we move from that pressure that says, look, as a leader, I always have to have all the [00:39:00] answers. You'll reach a point in your career if you haven't already, where you realize you don't have all the answers and that can either be a paralyzing moment where you realize I don't know what to do, or you can see it as a freeing moment where you realize you have so much to learn.

[00:39:12] Alex: And being able to ask good questions and to listen really intently that unlocks so much leadership potential. 

[00:39:19] Sam: Yes, absolutely. Listening is very important. As a podcaster now that I'm going into the podcasting route, it's like, I learned like how important it is. And actually it's just like open so much more like then when you don't listen.

[00:39:37] Sam: You miss ideas, you miss things. I hundred percent believe in woman leaders. Some of the greatest leaders are women and, uh, but sometimes the world that we live in, there is a lot of bias.

[00:39:56] Sam: There's a lot of, like, systematic injustice,[00:40:00] , toward women and BIPOC people. So maybe they have a little bit of a harder path of trusting themselves, and maybe they'll go through the imposter syndrome. What can you tell people that identify as women and BIPOC about trusting themselves? We talked about the topic of trust, how it's important trusting others, but what I loved in your book was that first you need to trust yourself.

[00:40:31] Sam: To be able to trust others, can you share a little about that? 

[00:40:36] Imposter Syndrome and Trusting Yourself

[00:40:36] Alex: Yeah, and I appreciate that question and see you for what you're asking here, because trust doesn't come as easily to some as to others. And it's due to no fault of their own, but rather to systemic biases. You know, I think here about a quote that comes from Paul Batalden.

[00:40:50] Alex: He's a medical doctor. He says, every system is perfectly designed to give the results that it gets. And so that means that if a system keeps producing the wrong results, well, [00:41:00] we've got to change the system. And that's why I think it's so powerful that we find more voices in leadership, that we make space for others.

[00:41:07] Alex: But if you're someone who feels that sense of imposter syndrome, you know, first, I think we need to stop thinking about it as a fundamental problem with you. Um, there's a great article in Harvard Business Review that says, stop telling women they have imposter syndrome. And they say that if you feel it, it's not a problem with you, right?

[00:41:23] Alex: That's a problem that your organization hasn't given you the reasons that you should feel that trust in yourself. And so I think we need to stop some of the self blame, but also I think there's real power in community as well. Um, I'm a white man, but still I found incredible power as a change maker and having a sense of community of the beginning of my own journey, social entrepreneurs were going through similar things as me and we became sort of each other's hip squad and we were having trouble.

[00:41:49] Alex: Problems. We could kind of go to each other for that support. And so one of my encouragements would be to find that support. Um, you know, sometimes we don't see our own potential, but others do. And it's [00:42:00] learning to see and trust others opinions of ourselves, which then gives us the confidence to maybe see it in ourselves as well.

[00:42:06] Alex: So yeah, find that, that community to think is just crucial. 

[00:42:11] Changing Systems and The Right Problem

[00:42:11] Sam: I, I really love that, that you mentioned, , stop telling women they have imposter syndrome. Maybe it's the system that's makes it for them to feel like that, which I think it's absolutely true. So how do you think like the system can change and what are the roles of the startups in changing that systems?

[00:42:36] Alex: I'll start by thinking about identifying a problem. So sometimes when we identify a problem, we're actually confusing three different things. And that's a huge part about being a startup is to make sure you're solving the right problem. And so I'll challenge your listeners to really break apart the problem into three parts.

[00:42:52] Alex: So there's the core problem. This is the core thing that you're focusing on. It should be one sentence to be super clear and it's bounded, right? So if you're working [00:43:00] on climate change, you probably won't be changing the climate for the entire world, but you'll be changing one aspect of it. The way we find climate tech, the way we think about climate in California, right?

[00:43:10] Alex: So you scoping out a core problem. You're trying to solve the second are the consequences. This is where you identify, okay, well, if we don't solve this core problem, what happens as a result? What are the downstream effects? What happens 1, 5, 10 years from now if we don't solve this problem? And this is helpful because we can start measuring and say, look, if we solve this core problem, if we address this core problem, then we shouldn't see as many of these consequences.

[00:43:37] Alex: Then the third part, and the one that relates directly to changing systems, is underlying root causes. So ask yourself, okay, you've identified that core problem. Why do we have that in the first place? What are the underlying historical, cultural, technological, political, economic reasons that were there in that first place?

[00:43:58] Alex: Now you don't have to solve that right [00:44:00] away, but if you want to fundamentally leave a dent in the world, at some point you'll need to address those root causes. It helps you move from not just putting a bandaid on a cut, but making sure that people don't actually get cut in the first place. And so at the beginning of your startup journey, or even if it's now, it's not too late, really try to get clear on your core problem, the consequences and the root causes, at least by identifying the root causes, it'll give you a roadmap for saying, okay, look, maybe not now, but in a few years, this is how we'll know we're affecting deep, lasting systemic change.

[00:44:36] The TKI Conflict Model

[00:44:36] Alex: That 

[00:44:36] Sam: was really insightful. Thank you. Another question I have was about a graph, uh, that you shared in your book, and it was like two axes, the y axis on assertiveness, and I think the x axis was on cooperativeness. Can you explain that graph and, just [00:45:00] how leaders and startup can land on the right part of the graph?

[00:45:06] Alex: This is fascinating to me. So this is something called the Thomas Killman instrument, the TKI conflict model. It helps us understand what's our default approach to conflict, or I might say towards collaboration and working together. And so yeah, you're right, it's two axes. So on one end, you can sort of.

[00:45:24] Alex: Play along as you listen. So on one end, you think about when you're in a negotiation, how much do you try to satisfy your own needs in negotiation? How do you focus on getting what you want out of it? That's one axis. Then the other axis is when you're in a negotiation, how much are you looking out for the other person?

[00:45:43] Alex: You try to run over them, or you're trying to maybe get them what they want. You then connect those two dots in the XY plane, and that gives you a sense of what your TKI conflict mode is. So it's super interesting. So you can imagine, of course, if you're high on assertiveness, low on cooperativeness, then that means that you [00:46:00] just run people over.

[00:46:01] Alex: You say, I'm getting what I want. I don't care what you want. If you're low on both, you're an avoider. That means you hate conflict and you're just like, get me out of here. I do not want to be part of this. I don't care what our solution is. Like, oh, this is so uncomfortable. If you're far on the accommodating side, but low on your own assertiveness, you tend to just say, like, as soon as you reach conflict, just give the other person what they want.

[00:46:22] Alex: But here's where it gets super interesting. Most people think that the best place to be is sort of middle on both. A little assertive and a little looking out for the other person. But what happens is you're sort of in the middle of the graph and that's where we get into this danger zone of compromise.

[00:46:37] Alex: That means that everyone walks away feeling not that fulfilled. Like, yeah, I got a little bit of what I wanted, but I didn't really get what I set out to get. And the other person feels like, yeah, I got a little bit, but not really what I wanted. The key is to be in that top right hand quadrant. That's where you're absolutely looking out for your own needs and you're looking out for the needs of the other person.

[00:46:56] Alex: That's where amazing opportunities happen. That's where instead of just [00:47:00] an A or a B, a zero sum negotiation, there's only so much pie to go around. That's where you start thinking about new possibilities. What are creative ways you can meet your own needs and meet the needs of the other person? That's where true innovation often lies because you're bringing in both perspectives.

[00:47:16] Alex: And it's also where a lot of innovation happens because you're introduced to new concepts, new ideas, new things you wouldn't have otherwise thought of if you had just compromised, if you'd kind of given in on your ideals. So, as much as possible, when you reach a collaboration, a conflict, a negotiation, think about staying true to what it is that you really want.

[00:47:36] Alex: Don't cave in on that, but also equally try to find a solution where your negotiating partner is thrilled with the outcome. If you're both thrilled, that's a terrific outcome, and it might lead to new ideas you hadn't thought of before. Yeah, 

[00:47:52] Sam: I love the concept of that graph, the TKI model. 

[00:47:56] Childhood Journey

[00:47:56] Sam: Alex, this is a question I asked from all [00:48:00] my. Guests. How was your childhood? Where did you 

[00:48:04] Alex: grow up? I grew up in the heart of the Silicon Valley. And so I guess that's why it's not a surprise. Entrepreneurship has always kind of been in the ethos.

[00:48:15] Alex: I had friends whose parents were startup founders, or if their parents were doctors, they'd be doctors to startup founders or lawyers to startup founders. So I was always sort of immersed in that entrepreneurial world. Okay. And it really wasn't until I left for graduate school to Washington D. C. that I realized how much my growing up in the Bay Area and Silicon Valley had sort of shaped my perspective on things like entrepreneurship and smart risk taking.

[00:48:41] Alex: I grew up with 2 really loving parents, wonderful sister, and I think a deep sense of values and a deep sense of justice. That's wonderful. 

[00:48:54] Sam: . And I, I read about your grandparents history in China, which [00:49:00] was really, wow, just, you can see their cafe and museum. So, uh, you had a sense of, I guess, like the entrepreneurship in your, like, I don't know if, if there are real great grandparents, but that's also very interesting.

[00:49:16] Alex: And my grandparents and so they were refugees and they sort of didn't have a whole lot but they took action where they were and built a cafe to kind of remind them of their, their old hometown. So I guess there's been sort of always an entrepreneurial streak in my family. 

[00:49:30] Sam: That's wonderful. 

[00:49:31] Alex's Startup: Do Some Good

[00:49:31] Sam: And, uh, tell me a little about the start some good. 

[00:49:37] Alex: I set out with the belief, and this is something I realized when I was doing some work, living and working in India, is that there's changemakers all around the world, but just too many barriers getting in the way of getting started. And this has really been the red thread that's driven my whole life and my career, this idea of how can we help more people start good.

[00:49:56] Alex: It's my co founder Tom and I recognize a couple of problems and a couple of [00:50:00] things that really bothered us. This idea that it's so hard to get a social venture off the ground that there's not enough risk capital. It's never easy to raise money, but it's easier once you have a model and you can prove it.

[00:50:14] Alex: But how do you prove that model to give the money you need to actually launch a pilot? And on top of that, just that sense of justice of, you know, we often ask nonprofits to spend hours and hours writing a grant. And there's someone somewhere in a boardroom, let's say in New York city, reading a hundred applications and they choose one.

[00:50:30] Alex: But I fundamentally believe who knows better what a community needs than the community itself. And so we try to change the way we think about how we help people get started with doing good in the world. Yeah, that's, 

[00:50:43] Sam: that's really cool. , I love to know how is, the do some good doing now?

[00:50:51] Alex: Great. So, I mean, I took a step back and my co founder, Tom continues to lead it as CEO and to date. I think it's helped. 1500 changemakers in 50 [00:51:00] countries raise over 12 million US dollars to start good. And so, yeah, I'm very proud of Tom and his resilience for continuing going and even more. So all the changemakers that use the platform raising sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars and sometimes just hundreds of dollars to take their ideas and turn them into action. And I'm deeply proud of and appreciative of all the changemakers that have used our platform. 

[00:51:21] Sam: That's makes my heart really happy. , I was so happy to see that a company like that exists that is helping and supporting change makers.

[00:51:31] One Advice: Nothing is Ever Wasted

[00:51:31] Sam: So as we wrap up, could you share one piece of advice for inspiring change makers and entrepreneurs that has been a guiding principle in your journey? 

[00:51:46] Alex: I'll quote my grandmother. So my mom's mom. So she says, nothing is ever wasted. And I think we often feel like we have to be on the right track from the very beginning.

[00:51:56] Alex: We have to only do things that lead towards whatever our notion of [00:52:00] successes. But I found that there's incredible value of building a wealth of experiences. As Brene Brown says, building a large data set from which to pull. And that means that, you know, random classes I took in college that have no practical application have served me well in my change maker and my entrepreneurial jerseys, um, books that I read podcasts that I listened to, you know, to always be curious, always be seeking out new perspectives and new ideas.

[00:52:26] Alex: And don't feel like those ideas need to lead directly to some outcome right away. Because at some point, somewhere it'll pay off.

[00:52:36] Alex: Yes, that's, 

[00:52:37] Sam: that's wonderful. I love the advice of your grandmother. Nothing is wasted 100 percent sure thank you so much. That's a wonderful advice. 

[00:52:48] The Most Important Question 

[00:52:48] Sam: And, finally, the last question, what's the most important question you think change makers should be asking themselves today?

[00:52:59] Sam: And [00:53:00] why 

[00:53:02] Alex: it might be a cliche answer, but why? My toddler just turned three and that's his favorite question, but you've got to ask yourself, why, why are you going into this? Because change making is hard. Entrepreneurship is hard. You've got to be sure you have a clear why for why you're doing it and keep checking in because maybe your wife, when you were 18, no longer serves you, but it's your why that will keep you going amidst the inevitable hurdles, the inevitable challenges that you'll face.

[00:53:29] Alex: So keep checking in and understanding what's your reason for doing it. And the reason can't just be making money or having an exit, but what's the deeper why? Why, out of all the things you could be spending your time on, why are you choosing this one? And so keep asking yourself why and why and why. Be like my toddler, uh, to make sure that you're spending your time and your energy in the best possible way.

[00:53:51] Sam: I, I love that. I think like asking why can open up so many insights. So I'm going to ask myself why today. [00:54:00] Um, Alex, thank you so much. This was such a wonderful conversation. I really, really loved reading your book. I read a lot of books and I can say this is Like it's been one of my favorite ones, so I cannot wait to have you sign this for me.

[00:54:19] Sam: Thank you for this amazing conversation. 

[00:54:22] Alex: Oh, thank you for having me. I loved the different places that we went, the different questions that we asked and answered. Yeah, thank you for having me and very much look forward to staying in touch. 

[00:54:32] Sam: Same here. Thank you so much. 

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