The Entrepreneur's Road Podcast

Daniel and his TOP 1% Exit from Y-Combinator (Part-2)

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Guest Background:


Daniel Kivatinos, a serial entrepreneur with a resilient spirit, co-founded DrChrono, a transformative platform in medical record management. His journey in the tech startup world includes overcoming failures and layoffs, leading to his determination for autonomy and innovation. Daniel's proactive approach and ability to seize opportunities during pivotal moments in technology led to DrChrono's success, ranking it among Y Combinator's elite exits. Now, he's at the helm of JustPaid.io, an AI-driven revenue collection platform, continuing his legacy of reshaping industries with forward-thinking solutions.

Guest Info:

LinkedIn: Daniel Kivatinos
Instagram: Daniel Kivatinos

JustPaid.io Info:

Website: JustPaid.io
Instagram: @JustPaid.io

Schedule a Live demo HERE 

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Daniel Episode Part 2

[00:00:00] Episode Introduction

[00:00:00] I think it's a mental game as much of a product game, 

[00:00:04] I kind of view it like, you're driving a car towards a cliff, and you're in the car with like, a few people, and they're like, we could build wings. And you're going 100 miles an hour towards the end of the cliff. Do you have enough faith, and this is the way I view it, and I just, do you have enough faith that like your team can like help build wings before you fall off the cliff?

[00:00:26] Or do you want to just stop the car like right now to survive and live and live a normal life?

[00:00:31] Hi there listener. Welcome back to part two of our insightful journey with Danielle Kivatinos. A serial entrepreneur with a top 1% exit from YC. Under his belt. in the previous episode we delved into Danielle's early challenges and the creation of Dr. Krono, a platform that transformed medical record management. Today, we'll explore. 

[00:00:57] Danielle's latest venture, just [00:01:00] paid.io. And uncover his vision for leveraging AI in revolutionizing revenue collection. This episode is a rare opportunity to gather lessons from a seasoned entrepreneur. Stay with us to discover how you can leverage these insights in your own entrepreneurial endeavors. And don't forget, we have a special surprise for our poll participant. At the end of the episode. Let's get us started. 

[00:01:27] Daniel: Every doctor in the United States.

[00:01:30] Daniel: who bought an iPad, only had one medical record to find. So, you know, right place, right time, right idea. And doctors were like, I'm at home, I just, I'm excited. I got my iPad. I need medical records on my iPad. Let me download it. And it was like, oh there it is. There's the company. Yeah, and then that was One of the one of the many many many tests so 

[00:01:56] Sam: keep testing and be forward thinking [00:02:00] Yeah, and yeah, and make sure it's like testing fast and your customers will come hopefully, yes, so , could you like walk us through your approach to fundraising for your startup?

[00:02:15] Sam: When, when were you able to fundraise and would you like, and then after that we can focus on the advices you have for entrepreneurs that are fundraising in right now, like, um, in today's marketplace, 

[00:02:31] Daniel: fundraising for my first startup or my second, or just so 

[00:02:34] Sam: For second. You also raised your right.

[00:02:36] Sam: Um, yeah. Well, tell me about the second one and cause like it's the newest one. And then tell me, , what does , this company do first? 

[00:02:46] What does justpai.io does?

[00:02:46] Daniel: My new company. Yeah. Okay. Um, so one of the experiences I had, like just being in startups in general was like, how do you get paid in a really good, elegant way? Um, it [00:03:00] sounds simple, but it's not so straightforward, like a lot of companies will hire an accountant or a bookkeeper or they'll hire a developer to figure out how to get them money. That's just the way that it is, like, oh yes, there's Stripe. Yes, there is Stripe, but you need a developer to build it. Are you building a product or are you building a payment system?

[00:03:23] Daniel: Right, so like you're diverting resources. Are you hiring an accountant? Or are you building your product? Right? So like, I think for me, I really wanted, and I saw this problem before over and over in startups is how do you support a startup and a large company in getting the revenue that they deserve as easy as possible?

[00:03:47] Daniel: Right? And we're tackling that problem, which is how Basically just understanding like, hey, customers contract is expiring. They owe us 40, 000 every [00:04:00] year. There's no extension on the contract. What do we do? Like, AI should be able to help in some way with that process. So we're building um, rails for payments.

[00:04:13] Daniel: We're building AI to enable like, insights and like, enlightening. companies to getting paid. Um, and for me that, you know, why would I want to work on this problem? I feel like it's an interesting, challenging problem. I really like the idea of building an infrastructure company that supports other companies in that way.

[00:04:43] Daniel: And again, it's like not everything is going to like appear like day one for a startup. And I know this because we're doing a lot of micro tests, right? So we're kind of taking it day by day with like our mission statement, which is like basically [00:05:00] supporting companies in money flow with AI. And like, that's the really broad way of like thinking about our company.

[00:05:09] Daniel: And. You know, talking about the fundraise, I didn't pitch it any differently than that. I think, you know, the second time around, like investors took me more serious because I did it before. Right. So they're like, this guy has done it before. He's got experience. You're right. Yeah. 

[00:05:27] Sam: Yeah. 

[00:05:29] Daniel: You know, I also like, I look at it from their eyes.

[00:05:34] Daniel: And this time around where I'm like, if I was in their shoes, and you only had so much money to give out to founders, What do you do? Right? I'm looking at it from their perspective now way more than ever before. Like, Mm hmm.

[00:05:48] Daniel: How do I make my money back and not lose it on a company? Yeah, so I am thinking about it from that perspective all the time. That's good And it's you know, it's it's [00:06:00] a burden for the founder because I feel hyper responsible Every day. I'm like, how do I make their money back and Make them whole and then 10x 100x 1000x that to make us all like really like put us in a really good position so I think the first time around I had different, like different lenses on, right?

[00:06:21] Daniel: Like, I don't know. It was a different, different experience, but this time I'm like, how do I take care of the investor to make sure they're okay? If that makes sense, like. Maybe that's not the right approach, but like, I look at it from that approach a lot. 

[00:06:42] Sam: I think that's a great approach because, um, you are.

[00:06:46] Sam: Taking responsibility of the money that they gave you and you're taking it seriously. So I think like this just like shows you have really good values. And I think I hope like every entrepreneur is is like that. [00:07:00] Um, and I think it's a good motivator for people , if it's someone else's money that's on the line.

[00:07:07] Sam: , if they really care about the other person, I think that can motivate them to work harder. Yeah. 

[00:07:12] Raising Capital as Unknown First Time Founders

[00:07:12] Sam: But did you had a hard time to raise the first time around? 

[00:07:19] Daniel: Uh, the first time was extremely difficult, I would say in the early days because you had two founders who had never done anything before.

[00:07:29] Daniel: Investors really didn't like health care back then it was not a thing. Now it's kind of like people get it. Now pandemic happened like people care about health like 23 and me and all these like great companies out there. Like we all want to like be more healthy. Like I think there's like a more deeper awareness.

[00:07:48] Daniel: But back then I think people startups, let alone like startups and health care. Right. So like we were fighting two battles. At the same time, and I [00:08:00] think investors were super scared and hesitant of our startup because medical records in the cloud, why would anybody do that? That doesn't make sense. We had like literally that sort of like conversation with people that are like, well, it's a solved problem.

[00:08:21] Daniel: I've heard that over and over. It's like, it's a solved problem, right? Like, yeah. What do you say to that? Right? Like, and I think for me, I was just like, it's the wrong person for our startup. And I would just, I never really took offense to it. I was just like, they don't get it. They don't understand. We're trying to like make a change in like this world.

[00:08:43] Daniel: And they're just not the right person for us. I mean, there's also bad investors out there. I think there's investors that are dangerous, like meaning like they're either short. Term thinkers, like they want to flip the company in like six months or [00:09:00] they want to remove the founders immediately or they want something that will hurt the company's like culture.

[00:09:09] Daniel: Like there's a lot of type of investors out there that I think entrepreneurs need to be aware there. If you take someone's money, take them serious because it is their money, but don't just take money because you're desperate. It might be better, this sounds really hard, it might be better to like not take the money and struggle than to take the money and be like, you know, things fall apart within like four months because the investor doesn't like what you're 

[00:09:40] Sam: doing.

[00:09:41] Sam: Yeah, it's like taking the money from the wrong person, you shouldn't look at investors just as money, , you have to look at them as a whole package, , what can they bring to the table? Like who are they as a person because, they're going to be there with you.

[00:09:57] Daniel: Yeah. Yep. So exactly. [00:10:00] So you have to find those. the people that like fit for your 

[00:10:03] Sam: startup. So then how did you convince them? 

[00:10:06] Daniel: I think that there's, um, there's an abnormal imbalance. Are we talking about my first startup or second startup?

[00:10:14] Daniel: First one. Okay. How did we convince them in the first startup? Yeah. 

[00:10:19] Sam: The ones that's. 

[00:10:22] Convincing the First Investors 

[00:10:22] Daniel: Well, the very first. Um, investor who came in was, um, Y Combinator, the way that we convinced them. I remember distinctly, like my co founder, he was like, I really like Y Combinator. I really want to get us in there. And, uh, I think this is one of my stronger qualities is I just emailed them directly.

[00:10:41] Daniel: I emailed Paul Graham and, you know, the, all the founders of Y Combinator. And I said, Hey, we're doing this thing. We really need to talk to you. I want to see if you're interested. And, uh, this is the quality that I think, like, I shine at. Like, they said no. I [00:11:00] was like, no problem, but who do you have that can come over to our office?

[00:11:03] Daniel: It's like, come, whoever can come over, we're good with that. And, you know, they were like, hey, this guy Alexis Ohamian is in the area. He can swing by and just see what you're working on. And I don't think that's normal for YC to, like, just do that. I think it was right time, right place. But he, you know, Alexis Ohamian, founder of Reddit, comes to our office.

[00:11:25] Daniel: He just sees what we're working on. And he was really, really just, like, an awesome person. Like, spent time with us. And I think he was the first one who Became wealthy in Silicon Valley that we met, like that took us serious. And he said, Hey, why don't you fly out to California? You could pitch us there and we'll see if it's a fit.

[00:11:52] Daniel: And, uh, I just remember, I was like, I only have 50, 000. It's like, it was less, it was like 30, 000. I'm like, how much is a ticket? I [00:12:00] remember thinking, and I'm like, I don't know if I want to do that. I'm like, look at my co founder. I'm like, we're going to be wasting our money real fast if we're just like doing this all the time.

[00:12:08] Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. And I remember buying the ticket feeling like sick to my stomach being like, Oh my God, this is a dumb idea. Yes. Anyway, we both bought our tickets. I mean, at the time the company did have legs, we were featured by Apple. We had users like this is after the iPad. You know, we launched on the iPad.

[00:12:29] Daniel: You know, we had real users and featured by Apple as the medical record on the iPad. How 

[00:12:35] Sam: many users did you have by that point, do you remember? 

[00:12:38] Daniel: A lot. A lot. It was real users, like, using it. I mean 

[00:12:43] Sam: And they were paying for it this time. Yeah. 

[00:12:46] Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. So we had people paying us at that point. But we flew to California.

[00:12:51] Daniel: Um, I remember, like Practicing our pitch for the first time, like, [00:13:00] probably for 24 hours, like, just nonstop. Like, how are we gonna pitch? How are we gonna, like, talk? Let's present it the right way. You know, we prepped, like, over and over and over. And, uh, You know, I think one thing that was really great is before we, just rewinding a little bit, we went to, they had a startup school event.

[00:13:23] Daniel: We went to that also where, uh, they had a bunch of speakers, like the founder of Airbnb, other founders, but, um, that kind of set the stage for me, like, this is like a, it seems like a real investor, because they're pulling in, like, really good people, like, we gotta, like, take this serious. And, uh, I just remember we went to Y Combinator's offices and, like, sat in a room with, like, eight people in front of us.

[00:13:49] Daniel: It was almost like a panel, like a jury. Like a, you know, judge and jury, they just kind of all stared 

[00:13:55] Sam: at us. 

[00:13:56] Daniel: Yeah. And we just went straight into the pitch [00:14:00] and, you know, my co founder kind of, we just, I didn't even think it was just like pitch mode. We did our pitch, walked out and I'm like, let's just go home.

[00:14:08] Daniel: I don't think they want to invest. We were like preparing to fly back that night and they're like, we'll call you tonight and give you an answer. And I remember the founder of Y Combinator, Paul Graham, calls us at like, it was like 8 p. m. He, he's like, hey, we want to invest. Do you want in? Yes or no, decide now.

[00:14:29] Daniel: That's 

[00:14:30] Sam: amazing. Wow. I mean, 

[00:14:34] Daniel: I was like, this is, it seems good. Why did we take the money? I don't know. Like, we actually said no to other investors before that. Like, there were some bad investors who wanted to do, It was just strange, strange before that, but we took the money. It wasn't a lot. It was not a lot of money Right, and they're like the one requirement is you have to fly to California for three months And I'm thinking okay.

[00:14:58] Daniel: We'll take their whole investment. We'll pay [00:15:00] our rent and then we'll go Yeah, right like that was their whole investment so we just took them on as investors and You know, I found us a place right after, like, literally, it was like a day after, I found us like a place to stay for the whole summer that was right next to Y Combinator.

[00:15:17] Daniel: Mm hmm. And, uh, you know, I convinced the whole team that we were going to move to California. And they were all up for it, which was crazy. They were all just, like, gung ho. It wasn't a big team, it was very, very small. And That's awesome. Came to California and started to do, like, the Y Combinator program.

[00:15:36] Daniel: And that was, like, the very first investor. Yeah. I just think, you know, there was just a different mindset in California, like invest in the future. Mm hmm. And the East Coast back in 2011,

[00:15:56] Daniel: if you're not working on Wall Street, you weren't respected. It was [00:16:00] just like an undertone in the, in that, in that environment. You're either an artist doing really cool stuff in New York, you're in fashion or you're in. Finance. It was like, if you're not doing that, it was like, kind of like not the best place to be, at least for me.

[00:16:15] Daniel: And then we come out here and I'm like, these guys are really smart. Like, I just remember sitting down with like creator of Gmail and he's advising me, you know, Paul Buchheit. And he's like, Hey, I created Gmail. I'm like, we use Gmail. What? Yeah. Use your product. And he's just, you know, giving us advice and everything.

[00:16:33] Sam: Yeah, that's really cool. That's that's it 

[00:16:36] Daniel: was that very first. It was Y. C. Who took a bet on the company in the early days. Yeah, 

[00:16:42] Practical Advice on Fundraising 

[00:16:42] Sam: so, I want to move on to the future of A. I. In business. But, is there any practical advice on fundraising that you would like to give to the audience before I move on? 

[00:16:57] Daniel: I think there's like one thing, and this is what I was getting to, [00:17:00] which was there's generally an imbalance and information exchange.

[00:17:05] Daniel: And what I mean by that is investors are talking. If you're a good investor, you're talking to thousands of entrepreneurs, right? So you have a privy into all of the world in a unique way where you're seeing all this data points. Who's what's working? What's not working? Founders don't have that, right? So they're coming in with their idea and they're very passionate about their idea.

[00:17:32] Daniel: What I've noticed is you need to be responsible as an entrepreneur to know all the investors possible. Like, talk to as many investors as you can. at some point, it doesn't have to be when you're building your product. Like there's product building mode and then there's product fundraising mode. I think the more investors, you know, the more you build trust with those investors, the more [00:18:00] of the dynamic shift that happens where investors feel like this.

[00:18:08] Daniel: They feel desperation from certain entrepreneurs, like It's almost like a desperate date. Like someone keeps texting you over and over and over again, and you're like, Oh my God, this is not, this is not nice. You get these entrepreneurs who hyper fixate on an investor who may not want to invest. Right? You talk to an investor, and if you guys work well together, and they give you information, you can build a rapport.

[00:18:35] Daniel: But don't hyper fixate on one investor. No, hundred 

[00:18:38] Sam: percent. 

[00:18:39] Daniel: It's, it's this investor. It's the best investor in the world. This is the way, you know, founders, they said they might give us a term sheet, guys, we need to focus on them. And I think that's the wrong way to think about it. 

[00:18:51] Sam: Yeah. You want different investors wanting you so that they also feel the scarcity mindset.

[00:18:58] Sam: Yes. And [00:19:00] what's another investor Guest of mine, advice, , goes along with what you just said. And also he said, start with the investors that you don't like much and practice your pitch, , at first. And then once your pitch is perfect, go and, to the investors that you really want. Yeah.

[00:19:16] Sam: That's a really good idea. Thank you for that. 

[00:19:18] Future of AI in Business Processes

[00:19:18] Sam: So moving on to, the future of AI in business. For startups that are looking to integrate AI into their business and processes, what. What foundational steps would you recommend? 

[00:19:40] Daniel: Are they building it or are they buying the products? Like what? Building it.

[00:19:44] Daniel: Building it. Okay.

[00:19:49] Daniel: I think what exists today, there's a lot of debate around like this doesn't work today for X. Like it's just kind of like a fun [00:20:00] toy, right? I think if you look out six, seven years, it's going to be really like game changing to the point where people rely on AI to do way more than what they expect.

[00:20:16] Daniel: Um, it's hard for me to tell exactly like what the world is going to look like, but I know AI is going to be everywhere. 

[00:20:25] Daniel: What I mean by that is like, it's clear as day to me, like if AI could figure out how to make my calendar work for me, remember like we had a conversation about what's the right day to meet and all of that. And like there are things that like are repetitive tasks that I feel like AI might be able to really just take on and like I am.

[00:20:51] Daniel: going to be so amazed at like what's possible in the future because You know like whatever you enjoy in life. You should be [00:21:00] doing more of that And I think AI might pick up some of the burdens for people

[00:21:05] Daniel: What I mean by that like Like maybe you have a target credit card, maybe you have a Sephora credit card, maybe you have an American Express credit card. And you're like, I have to pay all these and manage all these. I set up auto pay, you know, AI, if it was in that mix, maybe you wouldn't have to think about it at all.

[00:21:26] Daniel: And then it would help you know if, like, there's a late payment or if, like, there's not enough money in your bank account. Um, the way I view it is like, there's probably going to be a lot of, um, hyper verticalized AI is that are going to help people and you're going to have to, like, aggregate those hyper verticalized A.

[00:21:47] Daniel: I. S. together and create an experience for you or for your business, right? And you know, I see that starting to happen today. we use a lot of those tools in my company. [00:22:00] Um, you know, I was having a conversation last night with someone who's not a developer and he was, his mind was blown because I was like, look, developers In the past, you need like 10 developers at your startup doing all this really great work or 5 developers at your startup doing all this really great work.

[00:22:18] Daniel: In 7 years, you're not going to need that many, right? AI will help, but at the same time, like, people will be enjoying different aspects of their life that they really, like, want to do more of. Whatever that is. And like, I'll give you an example, like, 

[00:22:36] Fear of AI Taking Over

[00:22:36] Daniel: Just thinking about like the farming industry, like we were all farmers, like back in the day and like when they first started creating those machines, this is, this is like the fear mindset.

[00:22:46] Daniel: It's like those machines are going to take our jobs. What are we going to do? Like, what are we going to do? We farm like, what are we going to do? Like we can't farm anymore. Like that machine is like harvesting corn for us. We used to [00:23:00] just do that all day. We don't have a job. I think people find things like new to do.

[00:23:07] Daniel: And I think, you know, this argument that AI is taking our jobs. For me, it's like, I don't think it's that at all. I think it's just a tool to make life better. And I think people are going to actually have really great life with it. Right? 

[00:23:21] Sam: I'm also optimistic, but I believe there needs to be like, definitely Good leaders and good policies in place to make sure, you know, to, , navigating this new world.

[00:23:36] Sam: Um, but yeah, it's really funny that you said , we were all farmers I was in a hike, um, in Tomales Point Trailhead and there is like an abandoned village. And I was like, at what point did they like, abandoned this village? And there's like a lot of like farm equipment that are very old.

[00:23:52] Sam: Um. So I guess one day we will be history all ourselves and, some equipment of ours just like, , [00:24:00] it's going to be like a fossil, , but, 

[00:24:04] How is AI Transforming Business Operations?

[00:24:04] Sam: how do you envision AI transforming business operations? I mean, your startup is in transforming some parts of the business operations. So what are your thoughts?

[00:24:17] Daniel: I mean, for my startup and for like the, what, what I think about a lot is how do I educate business owners to operate their business more effectively? I mean, if you, I like to use this analogy a lot, but like when you have your phone, you know, when the battery is going to die, right? When you have your car, you know, when it's going to run out of gas,

[00:24:44] Daniel: I think a lot of business owners look. backward looking, meaning like how much did we spend this month and where are we now, right? And generally they get snapshots of that data every so often. [00:25:00] And businesses can become really complex over time, successful businesses. You might have 30, 000 customers, right?

[00:25:08] Daniel: You might have 1, 000 employees. Some employees might be doing things, uh, customers might be doing things. Understanding, like, where your revenue is going and coming. And understanding, like, what the employee base is doing is so important to, like, running your business appropriately. I can only imagine like the scale of like an AT& T.

[00:25:36] Daniel: All of the hardware that they're buying, all of the equipment that they're buying, all of the people that they're managing, all of the contracts that they're managing. Imagine running a business like that with people. And that's what's happening today. And I'm like, it's literally people scrambling to understand how do we keep this business together.

[00:25:55] Daniel: I think with AI and the way that like we're envisioning it. [00:26:00] It's, you're going to wake up in the morning and it's going to give you information on like where you are today with your business. You're going to travel, maybe you'll fly to like another location. It'll immediately adopt and like give you more information that's insightful for that location.

[00:26:16] Daniel: You know, I think right now things are very much like, it's just a people driven business. And you think people are perfect, but look at what happened with SVB. Right? Like the auditors came in, they said, this company is fine. Like if AI was there and AI was modeling out insane scenarios, it could give you more insights that are unbiased versus like a personal opinion.

[00:26:43] Daniel: , you think, you know what, you know, but you don't know what you don't know. And I think with AI. If, if done appropriately, it will help give insights to keep businesses more like, [00:27:00] like running smoothly. Mm hmm. 

[00:27:02] Sam: I can, I can really imagine it, especially, just thinking about like just one person life and then like comparing it to a business, like there's so many different AI possibilities I can think of that it could help me make my life easier from cleaning up my emails, to like finding important things that I'm missing out in there.

[00:27:24] Sam: So, and with numbers, of course, it can be unbiased. , but I guess, in art and other stuff, maybe we need a data. That is unbiased itself. So I guess like in that sense, , I don't know, like bias will be different.

[00:27:43] Sam: Yeah. But with numbers. Yes. 

[00:27:46] Sam: Especially with teaching your customers, And that this is the future, so let me teach you how you can [00:28:00] keep up and make your life easier. Like, by teaching you this, let me give back precious time to you. That you could spend time whatever you love doing 

[00:28:12] Sam: Yeah. So that's a really, really good point. And it reminds me of, I think it's, you know, Web3 and how a lot of people didn't really get it. , so I think AI, hopefully it will be different. , I, 

[00:28:31] Daniel: I think it's different. 

[00:28:32] Sam: I think it's very different too. I mean, but, you know, I think like teaching people is very important.

[00:28:39] Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, with Web3. There were a lot of question marks, like for me, like

[00:28:46] Daniel: everyone has to be on board for web three to work. And when you have companies like Facebook, they're so incentivized to make Facebook work well, right? They need Facebook to be like operating at like a [00:29:00] hundred percent web three. It's almost like everyone has to buy into it in my opinion. And it's a big ask for something like that to work.

[00:29:10] Daniel: The thing that I, that like, it's the little things with AI today that like I know what's working. Mm-Hmm. . Like I just bought a new home and AI actually helped me close on the home. Like I used AI specifically to just get the home that I wanted. Nice. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank, but, but that was a real application today.

[00:29:31] Daniel: I had never used Web3. It was a concept that people like idealistically said this is gonna work. I love the idea of Web3, but like when you have corp, when our society is set up for like corporate structures and like people to get together in these like organizations, like Ford, Ford cars, it's like you're operating to make the best possible Ford car.

[00:29:57] Daniel: That's the way that we've structured our [00:30:00] society. It's like capitalistic in that way, like Web3 kind of breaks that up. In a non capitalistic way. And I'm like, we would have to change other parts of the structure of our society for it to really work really well. And it does happen like,, what's a good example of that?

[00:30:18] Daniel: Like HTTP, like, like the HTTP protocol, like that somehow that worked really well, like Linux originally, like there's Unix, there's Linux, there's windows, there's Mac. Somehow Linux took off as like a really like, wasn't a, it wasn't money. It was like people needed and wanted that to work. And it like, when it's, when something's forced upon you like Web3, 

[00:30:47] Sam: , especially with like non technical people, it's hard to understand it, they have so many questions, I'm non technical and I just like had a hard time understanding web three, [00:31:00] but like with AI, it's super different. And.

[00:31:04] Advice for Non-Technical Founders

[00:31:04] Sam: Speaking of non technical, I really wanted to ask you this question because like you mentioned about like how technical people is very important in a startup, especially like if you're running a tech startup, but there's a lot of non technical people that would they have really great ideas, but they don't have that technical expertise.

[00:31:27] Sam: And maybe they are looking for a co founder, , so what's kind of advice can you give those people? I know you are also not coming from a non technical background, but it's still like, can you offer any advice for non technical people when it comes to hiring and maintaining? People and bringing on, bringing them on, on their vision.

[00:31:51] Daniel: Um, in the early days, I think you really have to make, uh, the technical co founder a [00:32:00] co founder, right? Don't just pay people to do work. We'll go back to, like, Google. If Google was outsourcing all of their technical work to some other company, the brain trust of the company wouldn't be there, so they couldn't deliver the product that they need to deliver.

[00:32:22] Daniel: So, at the inception of Google, it was technical people being respected. And, like, Um, kind of given that like pedestal, like they can make decisions and they're respected and they have a. Say in the company, I think if you're a non technical co founder, you have to really remember that and you have to remember that, like the people that build the products need a seat at the table.

[00:32:53] Daniel: They need to be respected. They need to, like, be part of what's being built. It's [00:33:00] great on the flip side, like from the engineering side, sometimes your other co founders won't pull their weight, but other times they will. So like I kind of view, um, the co founding team is almost like a marriage in the sense that like there will be times when like other members of your team won't pull their weight.

[00:33:21] Daniel: So like if a technical co founder is doing a lot of work today, the other co founder may do a lot of work like after the product is where it needs to be to make the sale happen, right? So like I think there's a duality that has to happen. Um. You know, it sounds so silly. I look at bands, like I look at like the Beatles and I'm like, why did like one of my favorite bands in the world, like blow up, there were a lot of dynamics in that band that there was a lot of like, I would call like, not understanding and respecting the people you're working with, like, and also that permeates into who gets paid what.

[00:33:59] Daniel: And [00:34:00] resentment immediately builds. And like, when you look at like successful bands that have been around for like, I don't know, 50 years, 30 years. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot of mutual respect in like, understanding the dynamics of, of that band. Like, taking a break from touring all the time.

[00:34:20] Daniel: Like, coming back together, making a song, and everybody gets paid the same amount in that song, or whatever it is. Like, there's a lot of like, pieces to that puzzle. And you can use like, The Beatles as an example of like, a company that, sorry, a band that like, broke up and never could like be as good as they were.

[00:34:38] Daniel: Yeah. No, you have to be really careful, like, and respect the people that are like working with you. Cause if you don't, and you all disband, you're not going to create such good product anymore. And I think that's something that like non technical co founders have to [00:35:00] realize and technical co founders have to realize like.

[00:35:02] Daniel: There's a pull, a give and take in like skill sets, right? You need cells. You need non technical people. You need, like, if someone says I can just build this and not have this, like, good non technical people, they're really missing a component to scale, like, long, big vision, like, long term. If you only have technical people, it's a problem.

[00:35:24] Daniel: You need, like, a nice duality of all different types of people to create, All of the chemistry that like makes a company. Yeah. 

[00:35:33] Givingup Vs. Keep going 

[00:35:33] Sam: Balance is key in everything. So that brings me to, some of our last questions, which is startups are really hard, , and I feel like founders need to really know why they are doing what, what they're doing.

[00:35:51] Sam: So I wonder, were there any like time for you that you thought, , why did I do this to [00:36:00] start off, like, why did I even like went on an entrepreneurial paths? Yeah. Were there any moments like that for you and what's founders should ask themselves or early, entrepreneur enthusiasts before really wanting to go through that path?

[00:36:20] Daniel: I think every entrepreneur questions themself. Even Elon Musk. I think they all question themselves and they may not say it publicly, but there's a mental battle that happens internally in every founder, whether they talk about it or not. Like, you know, sometimes I'll have candid conversations with founders where they're like, I don't feel like I'm really fit for the job.

[00:36:43] Daniel: You know, it happens like to all founders, whether they admit it or not. And they, they asked him that question. Um, Of course it happens to me. I think it happens to everybody. Like you just kind of think about it and you're like, is this the right path? Is this the right path? [00:37:00] I think where it gets really hard is when things are not working.

[00:37:03] Daniel: Like you couldn't raise funding. Nobody's using your product. It's been five years. Like those are the times when I see founders like just give up when there might be success around the corner. And I've seen this in a lot of companies where like, if you give up, there's no going back. And I think for me, that's the fear of that.

[00:37:27] Daniel: Like giving up that allows me to just tolerate the ebbs and the flows like a startup never always feels good. There's really good highlights and there's really, really dark times. Like, you know, there's really, really low points in the startup where I see a lot of founders just, just throw in the towel, and 

[00:37:48] I think it's a mental game as much of a 

[00:37:51] Daniel: product, as much of a 

[00:37:52] product game, 

[00:37:54] I kind of view it like, 

[00:37:55] Daniel: uh, 

[00:37:56] you're driving a car towards a cliff, and you're in the car [00:38:00] with like, a few people, and they're like, we could build wings. And you're going 100 miles an hour towards the end of the cliff. Do you have enough faith, and this is the way I view it, and I just, do you have enough faith that like your team can like help build wings before you fall off the cliff?

[00:38:18] Or do you want to just stop the car like right now to survive and live and live a normal life? 

[00:38:23] Daniel: Wow. Yeah. And it's that extreme in a sense, like you have to like, kind of. work through that mental, even though these people are really smart and they know what they do, they're doing. And they've, they built wings for planes and whatever propellers for boats.

[00:38:41] Daniel: Now we're going to build wings for this car that we're driving towards the end of a cliff. Like, wow. You just have to fight through those moments. Um, but I think, you know, for founders, For me, it's a daily thing. Again, I go back to this like, turtle analogy. It's like, you can get there if you [00:39:00] like, work towards getting there.

[00:39:02] Daniel: And you just have to have a little bit of patience. Because if you panic and press the brakes on the car, it's over. Like, you may not have a second chance. You only live once, right? You literally only live once, and there's only so many chances you have in life. So You need to go for it or else, you know, you're getting older.

[00:39:22] Daniel: Right. I mean, this is the way I think about it. It's like, My co founders were asking me, they're like, why are you doing that? That's so crazy. And I'm like, what are we not going to work hard and like do what we need to do to build this thing? And what I mean by that is like, they were very hesitant to like talk to investors.

[00:39:40] Daniel: And I'm like, guys, if we're going to do it. We need to talk to the best people out there like now. And, uh, you know, they were seeing that in me. I would say that that's one of my good qualities there, but all my co founders in this company have like really strong skill sets that like [00:40:00] keep me grounded.

[00:40:01] Daniel: Right. So like when I'm stressed out about something, I'll look to my co founder and those wings are being built. They'll be like, I have this side ready. You know, and I'm like, okay, one wing is ready. Let's keep going. Right. So you kind of keep building the infrastructure as you go. I do think that there's moments where like, I, of course I wanted to give up in the past, you know, why didn't I give up?

[00:40:22] Daniel: I don't know. You just, a lot of my friends gave up on their startups and they had successful startups. They could have like, they could have just waited a little bit longer and things change. And like I saw this silly post about FTX online and they're like, Hey, you know, if, if FTX could have survived all of whatever just happened right now, crypto is doing so well, they'd be fine.

[00:40:48] Daniel: And I'm like, there's so many ups and downs in the life. It's just like, you know, everything that happened with FTX is horrible, but literally like they're not wrong. Like if FTX could just have like [00:41:00] survived whatever messed up thing they were doing, like now crypto is so, Yeah. Doing so well. Like it's like a hot space again.

[00:41:07] Daniel: Yeah. It's funny. It's amazing to see. Like's really funny. Yeah. Yeah. What's going on there? But that's a really bad analogy, but it's just like, you see like the ups and downs of it all. Like, yeah. Yeah. And if you can just build something really, like for the long term and not think about just now, like Mm-Hmm.

[00:41:25] Daniel: I think that's important. 

[00:41:27] Sam: But yeah, that's such a. Visually stressful example, the car, that was like really like, yeah, that's how startups are really. And I agree that like, it's as, as much as it's a product game, it's a mental game too. And the mental, I feel it's even more important because like you are the best.

[00:41:56] Sam: engineer, you're the best founder, you're the [00:42:00] best leader, but then like you're all the time stressed in your head like, Oh my God, you know, like you're panicking, like you will be half of the best that you can be. And , I don't think anyone can see clearly if they are stressed all the time, they might not see the things that they need to see a stress like in a healthy level.

[00:42:18] Sam: It's good. It's good. But I really believe that founders need to work on their mental strength and all that, because a startup is a stressful and with a good mental strength, they can like see things clearly. They can be the best that they can be. , and of course, like a healthy level of stress is normal.

[00:42:43] Sam: So thank you so much on that. I have like some final questions, which is. Where do you think if your startup, the new one, if JustPaid. [00:43:00] io would realize its full potential, what kind of future that would be?

[00:43:09] The Future of Justpaid.io 

[00:43:09] Daniel: I think people would literally just leverage AI to understand payment flow. And they wouldn't need to work as hard to understand payment flow. 

[00:43:21] Daniel: You know, I do feel like I ask founders all the time and I ask, you know, people in companies all the time, like, do you understand your numbers? And they're like, no, you know, I just kind of the products more important. And that's not the wrong answer. But I feel like down the road, it's going to be a no brainer where like you will have.

[00:43:45] Daniel: Like the democratization of society where like businesses big and small will have the same insights,

[00:43:54] Daniel: not just people that can hire 25 finance people [00:44:00] and 60 salespeople to help manage the cash and to get revenue in the door. So you could have, a pizzeria like, and the pizzeria is like, how many boxes do I need for the next month? You know, and then let's just order that. How do you even know that?

[00:44:17] Daniel: Like, how do you know how many pizza boxes to order? What if you overordered by 450 like pizza boxes and you don't have enough space in storage? It sounds so silly, but it's like everybody is thinking about this in their own unique way. The large companies, the small companies, should you hire like, you know, it's a disaster.

[00:44:38] Daniel: Like what happened? It's really painful. Like people are letting all of these people go and these companies, it was an irrational. Optimism that happened and every company out there, not every, a lot of companies out there overhired, not thinking straight and the leadership should know that it was [00:45:00] them who said, let's hire, they hired all of these people and it doesn't look good when you let people go because then you lose trust in the existing team For me, that was them not understanding their numbers and understanding, like, what's going to happen in the future.

[00:45:17] Daniel: They were excited. They said, we have a lot of cash. Let's hire. I mean, when you let go of 5, 000 people, do you think the existing 5, 000 are going to trust you as much? They don't realize the direct influence, like, of the lack of understanding of their decisions they're making to the company, like, long term.

[00:45:38] Daniel: But if AI was there and it said, hey. Chances of you having to let go of 5, 000 of these people are 22%. Would you do it? Like, would you actually make those hires and then you have to like let all those people go? Right? Would you do it? Would you actually like I think they would second guess like that decision because they just didn't [00:46:00] have the insight and the foresight.

[00:46:02] Daniel: of like what they were doing and you think companies know what they're doing. It's just large groups of people figuring things out with like boatloads of cash. That's it. And they're just trying their best. But like if AI could give you more modeling and insights, you might really just think twice about making some of these decisions.

[00:46:21] Daniel: Like that could be disastrous. I think culturally it was a disaster to let all those people go. Right? I mean, of course, 

[00:46:32] Sam: of course. And, you know, like talking about these use cases, I'm just excited about the different use cases that AI will bring that makes life so much, easier than it is right now and helps you make better decisions down the line.

[00:46:52] Sam: I'm just excited to see how your company will be part of that within the awesome startup ecosystem. 

[00:47:00] Culture at Justpaid.io and Dr.Chrono

[00:47:00] [00:47:00]

[00:47:00] Sam: So my last question is that what kind of culture are you building at? Just paid dot IO and what kind of culture you built and you're proud off? At Dr Crono. 

[00:47:18] Daniel: I mean, I think they're both amazing cultures.

[00:47:21] Daniel: I kind of spoke about this before, but communication is key. And like letting people know what's happening in the company allows the team to make really good decisions on the fly. Communication is one piece. And how do you do that? I think every successful company does it in their own way. So like, there's no one way to do it.

[00:47:44] Daniel: For me, you know, having one on ones with people, having step down meetings, meaning like, even if there's a manager, you should talk to people below that. Having, uh, all hand meetings like once a week, once every two weeks. [00:48:00] In this company, it's fully remote. We do something called remote no talk meetings.

[00:48:06] Daniel: They're fun. Like, it's so strange, but everybody gets on a Zoom call, their camera's on, and they just work and they're not allowed to talk. I was like, I need people to feel like they're, like, working side by side. I think that's their favorite meeting. As weird as it sounds, because they want to, like, feel like they're in the room together.

[00:48:23] Daniel: Yeah. That's something I'm doing in this company. Um, I think everybody having, like, a deep respect for each other is important, and that's hard to do at scale. Like, in a small stage like this company, it's, it's possible, like, everybody really respects each other. Um, I think also, like, listening to people's input, like, when someone's talking, sometimes it's the small voice in the room that has, Probably the most [00:49:00] meaningful thing.

[00:49:00] Daniel: And it's not the person who can talk the loudest. Like, you have to create a culture where like, people that are scared to talk are allowed to talk. And it's, you see it in all companies. There's one person who's like quiet, or two people, or ten people, or twenty people. How do you take those small voices, like, and they're not, you know, they just don't talk.

[00:49:19] Daniel: Like, how do you get their ideas out on the table when at other companies, that wouldn't happen. And I think that's something where I'm always listening for that and I'm like, where's that feedback? Because you should respect feedback when it's given and not just push it down because these three people are louder than 35 other people.

[00:49:43] Daniel: Right? 

[00:49:44] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. That's again, reminds me of the book, that I mentioned earlier. Mm-Hmm. . And it was saying, we are living in a world today that no longer the loudest voice is the best leader. , but like, we are now like in going through zoom [00:50:00] and digital media and all that we were meeting that way.

[00:50:02] Sam: So like, it doesn't matter, you have a loud voice or not. But what I'm saying is that like. It's so important to make sure that the people that, maybe don't talk much to ask their opinion, as you said, kind of like you're teaching micro leadership within your culture that like, you don't ask those people and involve them.

[00:50:30] Sam: So I'm really excited about this culture. That's amazing. 

[00:50:33] What Happened to drChrono

[00:50:33] Sam: So what happened with Dr. Crono? Like, did it get acquired? 

[00:50:41] Daniel: Uh, yeah, yeah. I mean, what happened was, uh, there was a really great company, Evercommerce.

[00:50:47] Daniel: And I think sometimes you find like an amazing fit and an amazing team. And what I really like about ever commerce is the founder runs the company. And he's an [00:51:00] amazing person, like super insightful, get startups, built his company up. You know, it's an, uh, it's a public company now. I mean, he did it. He like is living the dream.

[00:51:11] Daniel: Right. So I really connected with him as a person and I just feel like culturally like things fit, if that makes sense. Um, for me it was just really enjoying the ride and finding the right people to work with and all of that. And I feel like the ever commerce team, they're really, really good people.

[00:51:30] Daniel: And they really, um, they believe in that vision. Like they, they really believe in like making change in healthcare and taking care of patients. And I really resonated with that. And, uh, You know, one thing led to another and they acquired the company and it felt right the whole time to me. And I was like, this is a great team, you know, and they, they're running the show now and you know, like building Dr.

[00:51:57] Daniel: Crotto into like the next phase of what it is. And I'm excited [00:52:00] to see like where they take it. So, yeah, 

[00:52:03] Sam: that's, that's so cool. Like seeing kind of your startup baby, growing with other people that you felt like, you know, they were gonna take it so far. Yeah, 

[00:52:16] Daniel: yeah. And it's, it's wonderful, you know, it was a great experience and I wouldn't change it for the world, honestly.

[00:52:22] Daniel: I thought it was such a fun, fun experience for me, like building it and meeting the ever commerce team and. And all of that. So, 

[00:52:31] Sam: that's so cool. 

[00:52:33] The Last Advice 

[00:52:33] Sam: Lastly, if you could give one advice to early entrepreneurs or entrepreneurs enthusiasts, what would it be?

[00:52:45] Daniel: I think, um,

[00:52:47] Daniel: Some of the best companies had co founders in them. Like if you look at Microsoft, Apple, Google. I think Founders who go it alone have a lower chance of [00:53:00] success. And when you have co founders involved It psychologically allows you to rely on them for like parts of your skill sets that are weak. And it's okay to build those skill sets over time.

[00:53:20] Daniel: But having co founders be strong in other areas allows you to like really shine in the areas where you can like run a startup. Uh, it is a psychological game like we spoke about. And I think like your confidence are your co founders. And if you don't have that, I've seen. And I talked to a lot of founders who struggle to, like, build a successful company and they don't know what they don't know because they're in it alone.

[00:53:50] Daniel: And I think there are rare companies that have single co founders that are successful and I can think of a few, but that's not the norm. I think the [00:54:00] norm is having a good team, whether it be one, whether it be two people. three people or four people. Like, I feel like that's the better dynamic for success.

[00:54:10] Daniel: And for my company now, I wanted the highest chance of success. So I pulled in two people with very different skill sets than me to help make this company successful. And where I'm lacking, they're covering me. And I think, you know, executive coaching, executive coaches talk about, like, co founders tend to hide behind their co founders for like things that they're not strong at.

[00:54:38] Daniel: And I think that's an accurate like way to think about it. And you know, executive coaches are always saying like you need to like stand in front and try to like also be strong in certain areas. But I don't think you need to be all of the time. That's why you pick people. And if you can't recruit people, That's a [00:55:00] really bad, I hate to say it, like to be your co founder, that's a really bad sign.

[00:55:04] Daniel: You have to be able to work with like people and you may not think they're a good fit. You may think, this is my friend, I don't want to ruin my friendship. You may think like, this person is not technical. Like, it's not about them doing everything. It's a give and take like a marriage. And if you seriously want to Do a startup, look at the top smartest people, make a list of 10 people that you respect or that you're friends with.

[00:55:36] Daniel: Make that list of 10 people and say, I'm going to talk to each one of these people and like actually say, I want to do a startup. Would you be interested? And if you're scared to say that to your boss, cause he's really smart, you should do it because you only live once. Like, and then you bring that group together and if they're serious and they, they give it a go.

[00:55:56] Daniel: You're actually like giving your startup like a chance. 

[00:55:59] Sam: [00:56:00] Yeah, it's so important to ask, you know, just go and ask. You never know what people answer will be. Yeah. Um, so that's really, really great advice. Thank you so much. Um, one last thing, um, is that I, last time I had a, Kind of like a surprise for my, uh, for my audience.

[00:56:29] Sam: Um, like we, with Roland, my investor guest, we thought of like, what could they like, you know, and we come up with them we did a raffle where to audience that participated in asking questions that, uh, they're going to meet Roland. An investor that I, um, interviewed. Yeah. So I'm wondering, like, if you would be willing to, come up together with a surprise for my audience that like a lot of them this time they [00:57:00] participated, , in asking questions.

[00:57:03] Daniel: Yeah. So I guess, um, I could do a raffle also. Yeah. 

[00:57:08] Sam: Yeah. That's, that's a great 

[00:57:10] Daniel: idea. If there's a raffle, you know, I could. Go for a walk with them at Stanford University for a few hours and kind of brainstorm about ideas that they have or Oh my 

[00:57:22] Sam: god. To get feedback. That's awesome. That's awesome. I love that.

[00:57:26] Sam: I love that. I think like everyone will be so happy to hear that. Awesome. Thank you so much. Um, Daniel, thank you so much. This was such a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. This was so fun and we should do this again. 

[00:57:43] Daniel: Definitely. Thank you for having me on. This was amazing. 

[00:57:46] Sam: Thank you, Daniel. Thank you. 

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